Hot Topic: Inflammatory Language, racism, and current community standards.

Honestly it should not need to change at all.

This is not Twitter or Reddit.

Everyone here is supposed to be an adult, not a bunch of people who want to act woke. Maybe move racially charged works to Controversial, but I would not ban or discourage them. Art is supposed to be free and maybe some adults should just grow the fuck up a bit and respect this.

If the whole thing of the N word being used is a problem, then Poopy Justice should be a problem as well. So would be the idea of LGBT Fluffs and no, I am not joking. Sensitive Babies next would need to go.

You have people who would also suffer due to seeing these things, even if it seems cute and harmless. Your essentially harming a group of people, as it now could be argued but honestly, we all know this is not the case. Adults simply need to grow the fuck up and adult.

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The issue has become far more than just GRM not liking a word in someone’s story. Case in point, it was a member of Staff that started this post. It’s less about the words themselves and more about the uptake in how often they’re being seen in General. That can likely be the very first thing that a new member sees and with zero context, it’s a bad look, regardless of intent.
And it’s not all that shocking that some can handle fictional violence against fictional beings easier than terminology that is easily equated with real world bigotry. Devil’s Advocate and all that, if you hear someone saying the same thing an actual racist would and do not know them, it’s difficult to tell the difference.

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sensitive babbeh next to leave

… Please don’t give them ideas

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We’re all here to have fun, fuckin I’m not the best person around here but if we start implementing more moderation eventually this place is going to suck Harder then reddit, and reddit sucks mega balls.

I reckon you could do a 3 strikes policy and then mute people who do it too often or can give temporary suspension to those that just go nuts.

Start a free for all chat too, anything goes if people don’t like it they can leave.

Anything should be allowed here under the controversial tag, like that post you put in, that post is hilarious and should remain.

Anything should be allowed here just put it under the right tag or people are going to leave and it won’t be fun anymore.

That’s my dumbass 2 cents worth

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See I agree with that. It’s less about outright hobbling all speech and more about reigning it in. I don’t like extreme solutions either as they tend to stifle creativity and stomp on free speech. People jump to a 1 or 10 solution when a 5 is generally the answer.

Literally what Contro was made for.

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My opinion would be, racist or homophobic elements should be regulated but not banned, so that sites begin to become more and more restrictive, it depends too much on the context in which it is used, it is not the same to use it to denote that the racist person is an imbecile even with humans, which is only one more detail of the character, unimportant and with the mere purpose of making your story more edgy.

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Alright, im going to make this statement without much tact, as i don’t really think my point can be made while doing so.

Firstly, moderation here is extremely caught up on labels, it seems as if there is no action that can be taken without making it a site wide change. You are moderators you are here to moderate, stop making every problem some huge show that has to include the whole community and has to have giant implications. Talk amogst yourselves as a mod team, figure out the issue, and deal with it. Not everything has to be made a huge ruling decision. Make some decisions on your own. If someone is continously abusing a person in chat over the course of multiple days, dont sit on your hands and go “oh but maybe someone would get upset if i did something”, use your judgement as an administrator and deal with it.

As far as this particular issue goes, there is already a solution that no one uses due to a culture being built around its use, no one uses the report function because it’s become synonymous with being whiney. Lets start using the damn system that’s in place, to help the moderators make these decisions. If you see something that you think crosses the line in some way, report it. Put a little note that says “probably too far” in the report, if several people report it, and they are reliable members of the community, then moderation has a metric to work of off instead of trying to mind read or create huge surveys to try and make everyone happy.

On the opposite side of this, while I am asking for moderators to make moves on their own, they also need to calm their tits. One of the absolute worst things you can do for a microcommunity is institute tons of huge sweeping changes in a short amount of time. Im not going to debate the anthro-nonfluff issues, but having so many huge changes in a short amount of time sows discontent. Give people some recovery time to go “oh okay, this has changed, a new status quo is building” and then implement a new change.

Overall I have been extremely unhappy with the moderation of the site in the last few months. It feels like the moderation is both extremely weak willed and quick to act at the same time depending on the issue at hand.

This is less about the issue at hand and more a dump of my frustrations. This is a great community, and while there are certainly some bad eggs, pretty much everyone here is a good person at heart, but mob rule is not the way to go. Taking community input is not a bad thing but out of the ~1000 people who view posts regularly, only about ~30 will comment here. Thats 0.03%. You will not get an accurate representation of community sentiment with that. It is your job and responsibilty as administration to deal with these issues, and if you see a fellow moderator abusing systems or making bad calls, dont pussy foot around it, call it out. Leadership is what is needed at this time, and not one person or one viewpoint, but a functioning team.

Huge fucking rant and I’m sure I already regret some things that I put here, and almost certaintly will piss some people off but its what came out of brain when I thought of this issue.

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So, talk about poopie fluffies is still okay? Or not?

Given all the horrors seen on here daily with fluffy on fluffy beatings, rapes, killings and the acts of human abusers, to hear that people are upset about racism seems… odd. I’ve been through several website changes since first finding this community.

Are we going to get inclusivity readers to make sure people aren’t offended?

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I don’t think we’ll be taking any steps that rid us of 85% of the content we have

Well it’s funny you should ask that. I’ve been talking to this company called Sweet Baby and they say they can get us a whole suite of customizations by June…

this is a joke

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Sinceramente,sea como sea esta sigue siendo una de las comunidades mas tranquilas donde he participado,he contemplado muy pocas discusiones personales y sinceramente,aunque sea el tema del debate ,sorprendentemente muy pocas exhibiciones reales de discriminacion por raza o nacionalidad ,espero que siga asi por mucho tiempo .

Honestly, be that as it may, this continues to be one of the quietest communities where I have participated, I have seen very few personal discussions and honestly, although it is the topic of the debate, surprisingly very few real displays of discrimination by race or nationality, I hope it stays that way. for a long time .
Translated by Google

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Sidenote on origins of fluffies

Fluffies as we know them now came from a space where this was permitted. An argument could be made that this is simply continuing as is.

Not fully true.

Fluffies originate from 4chan, which is known for its free-for-all rules of engagement. It’s not simply permitted, there are no which is a space on the internet where there are no holds barred and you’re likely to get slapped with slurs both created with something you identify with as a target, and tossed randomly just because they’re strong and loaded words.

In Fluffy Community, this would not fly. You can’t in ill-will call people slurs related to them with an intent to harm through slur use. I wouldn’t say that this community is continuing 4chan’s tradition.

But that’s just a side note.

Personal thoughts

Look, I can’t speak for anyone else but myself.

Growing up in the 90s, we had slurs at every step - although mostly related to homosexuality and mental health, given the homogenity of my home country. Neither myself nor my friends - both heterosexual or not - cared much about them being tossed around.

Majority of time, they were not meant to hurt. Majority of the time, they weren’t meaningful with their meaning. Calling someone a “fag” didn’t have much to do with their sexuality, it was just a loaded word. Rare times where these were meant to hit a person they were “designed for”, people would stand up in defense of their friends.

This makes it really hard for me to understand why in today’s world we’re so afraid of a word, as if they’re always an extension of the ill intent behind their original meaning. You can disallow the usage of a word, either by totally banning any instances of it, or by controlling in which context it might appear (ex. educational, or maybe humorous), but that won’t stop the ill intent itself, which will work its way around the ban on certain keywords.

Some thoughts on slur use

Sometimes it feels like today’s world is so hellbent on eradicating hateful language simply because it’s the easier approach than actually addressing the issue of actual prevalent hatred towards certain groups or communities of people.

“That’s it, boys - we banned all racist words. Racism is no more. Now let’s go find a pub full of other men of high social status, majority of them being of caucasian origin due to some weird coincidence and surely not systemic racism.”

You, who takes offense on behalf of a minority - ask yourself why? And answer honestly. Surely, it is repugnant, but how much of your opinion about it was dictated by other people taking offense on behalf of same minority? Doesn’t the fear, hate, disdain for these words feel at least tiny bit artifically inflated?

And why are these words deemed bad, but other aren’t? Why is it bad to call someone a “faggot”, which technically means a bundle of sticks, but it’s perfectly fine to call someone mentally ill, when it perpetuates stigma around mental health issues? Why is it fine to threaten people with harm or tell them to commit suicide? How come someone can wish death upon a creator of abuse comics, but you say one bad word and suddenly so much of the community gets riled up?

Also, a sidenote on slurs.

At least to me, banning words gives them power. We acknowledge how harmful they are, and as such we fear them more. And I didn’t know that I personally should be offended by being called “retarded” due to my neurodivergence, until Twitter told me it’s of utmost importance to be offended. Normalization of use in non-ill manner disempowers them. If I’m a “retard” and you’re a “retard” and everyone else is a “retard”, simply because it’s a word that gets tossed around, it loses its original meaning.

Where do we go from here?

Personally I see no point in actually banning certain words or content. Censorship in such way bears no actual merit beyond appeasing one group of people and infuriating another. Is status quo, where both sides can’t eat the cake and have the cake, really so evil? Can’t we - like Karn suggests - go for a 5 in a world full of 1s and 10s?

As to suggestion that such content steers storylines away from fluffies and comparing banning slurs to banning anthro, I disagree and wholeheartedly.

There are stories you can tell with anthro content and they were never banned. Heck - even anthro porn in service to the story or a joke is allowed. What we don’t want is this website turning into Fluffy621, and I think we don’t want it turning to some fluffy version of Redwatch.

Should, say for example, Asschwitz be banned? It’s a joke, racism is in service to it. Is it offensive? Yes. Racist? Yes. Edgy? Yes.

Is it related to the fluffies and is it a coherent story though? Also yes.

Perhaps guidelines to categorizing works containing such content would be useful, as already suggested.

Otherwise, rule nine still stands - civility. And as a mod, I can see how it maybe should be both more respected by users and more enforced by staff. That’s for a different discussion, though. One that’s gonna be more difficult technically than this one, but also less charged emotionally, so I suggest we consider it at a later time.

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I will add, having lots of firsthand experience with real racism, the half a dozen people on here dropping hard Rs and making fried chicken and watermelon jokes on here is all edgy anonymous internet fuckery which is a holdover from the early 00s.

I think the people raising the biggest stink over it are so sheltered from actually bigotry that blatantly fictional stereotypes feel real to them.

But the internet has changed a lot from the early 4chan days and if newer users arent comfortable there should still be space for them since this website isnt explicitly a hugbox or abuse forum.

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Where does the ‘problematic’ language begin to affect people? Why should anyone, as a content creator, care?

I’ve made content where an actual retarded being among retarded beings gets raped, bears an especially retarded child she tucks behind so it does’t get pharaoh’d, then that retarded baby gets raped by her father and made to bear children, one of which survives and calls her a monster for being retarded.

That story wasn’t a problem. That’s a fucked up story which people by and large had no problem with. Yet let’s say their owner called them a stupid nigger. What then? Just another caveat or a huge offense?

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I did not want to step into this discussion considering my role in it all, but I feel that my hand is being forced. I will be following the previous replies chronologically and replying when I see a need.



First:

Very true. I have scarcely ever seen a slur being used for the express intent of offending someone. When I have the response has been the same from both camps: absolutely not. We should not have any kind of acceptance for targeted bullying/harassment. I also feel that censoring the way people speak or create is something that should not be done, and that any potential harassment would not be curtailed even slightly by such a mandate. Harassment is already against the rules. If someone intends to break that rule, I highly doubt they’d mind breaking another. So in essence, it’s just censoring people who aren’t doing anything wrong.

This, I heavily agree with. I feel that the push to use it so heavily has mostly begun because the issue is in the limelight. If people were not pushing against it, we would not see nearly as much usage. Consider the “long legs” debate and the “what is a fluffy” debate going on, for instance. Did you see any posts about it before the debate became popular? And there would certainly be no reason to post about it after.

This to me reads as if the post was made under the assumption that the issue at hand is targeted harassment. As said before, it’s not. I believe this whole debate was started by this comic, which is not at all targeted. It’s just a comic.

I don’t fully disagree here. I do however think that allowing fluffies to explore more complex concepts can be fun, though usually it falls into weirdbox. Playing it straight when a fluffy is doing these things is really hard to do and more often than not unfunny. However, on this same note, if this were banned I’d want the LGBT category reevaluted. I say this as a member of the LGBT community myself, if offensive language is too much for a fluffy’s mind then so are sexuality and gender. Most people learn their first swear word before they learn about the concepts of gender (note, I am discussing gender as a choice rather than biological sex).

This is very important to remember! We have one centralized place for fluffy content. I wouldn’t count Reddit as it’s overrun by children and misguided moralists. We have one place. We should keep it as open as possible. Restricting what can be done here restricts the whole community.

I fully agree. Targeted harassment has no place here and I will not tolerate it. I do however think that some people have misconstrued the definition of what is harassment and what is someone finding content objectionable despite it being not at all targeted.

I see it as such: if a handful are opposed to the way a community tends to be, should the community change for them or should we simply accept the fact that everyone can’t belong everywhere? I, again, agree that allowing it to be weaponized is a terrible idea. As with abuse/hugbox comments, users have the right to dictate what happens in the comments of their posts. If you recall, the booru had a huge problem with hugboxers dogpiling abuse posts and vice versa. FC has a rule disallowing this and that can extend to general comment conduct as well, within reason.

This is not a bad idea at all. If it comes to it, I would prefer this to a sweeping ban of offensive language.

Could’ve been worded better, but I agree here. Part of being online, and existing in general, is living with the potential that you just might find content you dislike or disagree with. The best course of action is always to just move on.

I also agree here. Sure, there’s an argument to be made that slurs and offensive language can cause real-world harm. But blaming online forum messages for real-life racism is about as disingenuous as blaming violent video games for mass shootings, or rap music for gang activity. Have they more than likely caused a slight increase? Yes. But those people who “got radicalized online” or “decided to kill people because of DOOM” or “decided to gangbang because of Tupac” would almost certainly have done it anyway. Should we ban all media that isn’t squeaky clean?

Fluffies are a powerful method of social commentary, and I think limiting what can be done with them is a disservice to everyone here. Well said.

Again, could’ve been stated better, but I agree that it sometimes does come down to someone simply being thin-skinned. We should not have to walk on eggshells to speak our minds.

We spoke on this and decided it should happen, Goomy was just the messenger.

It really is a slippery slope. No moderation, and we’re back on the booru where everyone gets bullied and harassed. Too much, and we’re back on Reddit where no fun is allowed.

Heavily agree here. Reports are always taken into consideration and investigated as soon as possible.

Making many good points here.

I have, unironically, seen folks claim that poopie abuse is racist and has strong bigoted overtones. I don’t agree, and it’s certainly not common, but it sure is a held belief among two or three folks.

Very much agreed here. None of what’s being said in terms of “racism” is targeted or used to offend. I said it before, I’ll say it again, harassment is not something we will ever tolerate.



That’s… mostly all I’ve got. Open to discuss.

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I think that’s the clou of entire discussion, really. It is for many - unfortunately - an either/or situation. We ban slurs to make it a nice place for newbies - we turn the webiste into something oldtimers will hate. We call free fire on all kinds of slurs - we turn away the newbies and create a comfy space for oldtimers. (Of course that’s not entirely true, both old and new users will have peeps pro- and against censoring slurs, but that’s beyond the point.)

It’s incredibly hard to maintain a status quo, because people naturally would prefer to tug the community in the way they’re comfortable with. And as much as I find IFB’s reply whiny and unrelated to the issue, he is right about this - it’s time to take a final stance on preserving a 4chanesque edgy and offensive space vs neutering the edginess for the sake of becoming more like the rest of the internet. And status quo is also an acceptable stance, but it should be made known.

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Even tho im making 1 or 2 text stories, the only thing even closely resembling racism is the scifi or fantasy stuff e.g. Eldar referring to humans as a whole as “Monkaigh” outside of the Fluffy logic prejudice towards “poopie” colors and alicorns.

I agree but the issue becomes who is the site for? Lots of people past the booru days have found the hobby and FC has been a mostly chill and comfy space for many who enjoy fluffies. It’s easy to say grow a thicker skin, but they were fine here before, so clearly there has been a noticeable change. An issue that is inherently tied to this one is the old versus the new, those that have been around from the beginning and those who came later, which is more than just a few. It has been more than a little obvious that there has been a recent pull to bring the site back to what was referred to as a Fluffy Renaissance, but many simply weren’t there for that. It was a specific window of time and the hobby of fluffies evolved from there, with a multitude of different kinds of lovers of the hobby. And FC should not be pushed too hard in any direction for any specific group but rather be allowed to be what it has already been for years now. A place for posting and talking about fluffies with people who became friends.

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This is a process that ties into several issues at hand. Why are we to police the language in order to push for more inclusivity (to make the space for the new), if we’re pushing against inclusion of MLP OCs (to keep the space for the old) at the same time? It was said already, but we can’t make everyone fully happy.

And how more mainstream spaces deal with it is by allowing whatever current social narrative deems acceptable, banning whatever current social narrative deems inappropriate, and accordingly removing the rulebreakers while labelling them as troublemakers and unwanted members of the society. This is hardly something I wanna see here.

Remember, I am not for policing of language outright. I loathe extremes.
But if the last eight posts in General all contain Nigger or Faggot, maybe tone it down for the straights?

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You will generally see spikes and plummets like these from time to time. Someone posts a thing, bunch of people get inspired by it and create derivative or inspired works, then it all calms down. It was exactly the same with long legged freaks, and it’s calmed down since. It’s not always smart to row the boat against the current - especially if it’s just a minor turbulence.